MM with Lock ‘n’ Load – Why You Shouldn’t Do It

A lot of you have been asking me what I think about a Marksman spec diving into the Lock ‘n’ Load talent from SV. While it may seem kind of neat, there are too many reprecussions, too much lost damage to make this talent worth having. Below is a little example.

Lock 'n' Load - NO!


I hope this helps you to see why LnL simply isn’t worth having as a primarily Marksman hunter. When you think of new specs, try to think of it in the way of sacrifice – you only have so many points, so what are you willing to sacrifice for something else? In a game of chess, every piece is an important part of your strategy, and so it is with your talents. But it’s good to get those gears moving, and I commend you on thinking outside the box. Don’t stop trying to find new ways to do things. DO double-think them, share them, and test them.


Now that I have more time, let’s look further into this.

LnL – You have a 100% chance when you trap a target and a 10% chance when you deal periodic damage with your Serpent Sting to cause your next 2 Arcane Shot or Explosive Shot spells to trigger no cooldown, cost no mana and consume no ammo.  30 second cooldown.

Why do I say that Trap Dancing as MM won’t help our damage? Firstly, our traps cost more mana than an SV trap. Secondly, they do significantly less damage than an SV hunter’s trap, because further on in talents, SV gets a boost to trap damage. Thirdly, in the time it takes for us to place the trap, we will most likely either miss a shot cooldown, or miss one or two auto shots, which as Marksman is detrimental. The damage we deal from the trap will most likely not make up our lost shots’ damage.

What you gain – A Free Arcane Shot (2 actually)- it would behave similar to Wild Quiver, consuming no amm0 (soon to be irrelevant) and taking no cooldown.

What you lose – 2% damage on all shots, 7% increased haste, 12% damage on Aimed Shot and Volley, 30 total Attack Power

Why it’s not worth it – Arcane Shot is far from your top damage-dealing shot. If this applied to Chimera, it might actually be worth it (although still doubtful). But thinking in terms of loss vs. gain, you’re losing more damage than an extra Arcane can deal. The reason it’s so beneficial for SV is because it applies to their top-damage shot, and because it’s 100% chance if Trap Dancing, which is actually beneficial in SV. Another reason those points are great in SV is because of the talents they choose later on, which increases damage in tandem with their first few talents.

I hope this further explains the logic behind not choosing LnL. But hey! By all means, please try it out. I could be wrong. You never know ’til you try.

❤ Nass


~ by Kelly Jennelle on February 13, 2009.

34 Responses to “MM with Lock ‘n’ Load – Why You Shouldn’t Do It”

  1. I actually attempted a build with LnL. Your right Nass, it is not very effective. It felt really clumsy with my rotation, and my dps dropped significantly, like you said, you have to sacrifice to much for it. Leave LnL to the survivalists.

  2. Good post Nass. I’ve seen enough people specced with this Hybrid craziness and it’s good that you addressed it. I made a post yesterday with Survival builds on my blog if people want a guide on how to spec SV when they are currently MM.

    A couple things to note is that you mentioned SV as having lower mana cost on traps and although there is a talent (Resourcefulness) for that, it isn’t specced into for raiding. Also you mentioned that they do more damage (Trap Mastery). First, that is also not specced into for raiding, and second, It’s Frost Traps that are used and not Explosive Traps. It’s Frost Traps that currently do not trigger the internal CD of LnL and allow to double dip with SerpStings.

    As for MMers picking up LnL for Arcane Shots… you are correct saying that it is ONLY beneficial when you have Explosive Shot. Arcane Shot is not even on my action bar or any keybinds when I’m playing Survival.

  3. Interesting…perhaps I should take a week or two to play with Survival so I know more about what I’m dealing with. I’ve also suggested that people visit Lienna for more info on SV, as I have never played full SV before.

    In the case of using Frost Trap for trapdancing, that must mean LnL has HUGE benefits with Explosive Shot.

    If you’ve run Surv, what are your Explosives critting for? Anything near Chimera, or are they actually higher?

  4. Good post, and I have to admit it did cross my mind to spec into LnL with Marks but came to the same realisations you expressed, that is just isn’t worth it.
    That said, your comments on Aimed Shot lead me ask a couple of questions that have been nagging at me.
    To get the most out of Aimed, we’re looking at 7 talent points for 1 shot. Is that worth it? I’ve been playing around with my Marks spec (new to it, long time BM Hunter here) and right now I just have Aimed, 4 points in Improved Tracking and Wild Quiver (which is a recent change from ISS – neither are very impressive). Would I be better off taking the 3 points out of WQ and the 4 out if Imp Tracking and putting them into the Barrage talents and a full 2/2 Rapid Killing?
    The damage potential seems to be there, but only on 2 shots that I don’t use all the time and one I hardly touch (Aimed, Volley and Multi, respectively). I tend to keep Aimed in reserve for an extra on-the-move shot and Volley is situational, so that’s a lot of points for just those shots.
    My rational on Wild Quiver was that it’s a proc off my most frequent shot, would tie to Rapid Fire and IAoTH and Imp Tracking is across the board extra damage.
    Should I just dump aimed and put that point into 2/2 Rapid Killing?

    I’m liking this Marksman thing but it’s making me a bit neurotic too, not to mention putting a dent in the bank account with all the spec tweaking!

    Thanks for any help.

  5. I only meant the first tier of Barrage, which increases damage. I’m not concerned with Crits at this point. Crit has diminishing returns, but damage increase does not. Once you reach a certain crit chance, putting points into talents that give even more begins to be wasteful. I do, however, suggest putting all three points into Barrage.

    As for 2/2 Rapid Killing, this is strictly for you to decide based on length of time of your average fights and whether or not you’re relying on Rapid Recup for mana return, say in a Naxx 10-man.

    I don’t recommend dumping Aimed. If speced correctly, and if your mana isn’t an issue, it will increase your DPS by using it in rotation so long as it is your last priority shot.

    I am a fan of ISS – I find it proccing regularly, boosting the damage of my frequent Arcane shots and giving my gimpy Steady Shots a real purpose. If we’re going to use them as filler, they may as well do something, eh?

    However, stay away from Aimed if your mana consumption is high. Even glyphing for efficiency, the drain from using Aimed regularly can make your longer fights visibly more demanding on mana and so decreasing your DPS slightly. On mana-intensive fights, I suggest getting ISS, ignoring Barrage, and not using Aimed in rotation unless on the move, as you say.

    Spending the gold is worth it! Just think – soon we’ll have dual-spec. =D

  6. -“If you’ve run Surv, what are your Explosives critting for? Anything near Chimera, or are they actually higher?”

    Last Patchy kill, 3m 19s, total dps was 5431. I had 30 Explosives with a avg non crit of 1947 (x 3) and a max crit of 5268 (x 3). The (x 3) is WWS counts each tick individually instead of adding up all 3 together. My 30 ES = 345,205 dmg so avg ES was 11,506 dmg output. This was without trap dancing since there were no adds to proc LnL and Sniper Training with and I didn’t want to give our healers a heart attack by going into melee range (even tho I wouldn’t take any Hatefuls).

    -“In the case of using Frost Trap for trapdancing, that must mean LnL has HUGE benefits with Explosive Shot.”

    Well if we could use an Immolation trap to trigger LnL and keep it off of internal CD from SerpSting then it would be better than Frost since Frost does no additional dmg. But the dmg from Immolation isn’t worth losing the SerpSting proc’d LnL.

    Post 3.1 or in an earlier hot-fix we will lose the Frost Trap glitch but 3.1 Sniper training will be buffed to promote standing still. This means in some fights trap dancing will hinder your dps and SV playstyle will change accordingly.

    So Nass, how about dinner sometime?

  7. …I use Aimed without Barrage all the time. And it still hits consistently harder than Steady, and about on-par with Arcane, assuming I don’t have Earth and Moon.

  8. *edit. I relooked at my WWS and made a slight mistake and it counted each tick and the 30 was the number that hit (non crit) and I had 67 that critted. So it was a total of 97 ticks which is roughly 32.3 Shots. So my actual avg Explosive Shot including all three ticks was 10,687.

  9. Hrm, interesting numbers. I’ll have to parse Patchwerk 25 this week (YES, WE’RE FINALLY DOING 25S, THANK THE LIGHT) and see what my composite Chimeras come out like.

    /pray for a boomkin with Earth and Moon

  10. @ Rilgon, the problem isn’t “will it hit harder”. The problem is that by NOT getting Barrage, you’re losing hundreds of damage per Aimed shot. Barrage is a great talent to have and you should definitely have it if you’re using Aimed regularly. Those points will add significant damage to your total, damage that putting points into increased range or extra stam simply won’t get you.

    @Perzyx – I think you may be a bit too short for me. =P

  11. 5’11” is too short? I can be 6’2″ with heels if you’d like 😉

  12. I’m 5’10”, and I like to wear heels. Maybe you’ve got platforms?

  13. Sure, if that’s what it takes 🙂

  14. LOL Height isn’t the only factor, my friend.

  15. Yes I have plenty of girth as well, my love.

  16. Barrage is a great talent to have and you should definitely have it if you’re using Aimed regularly.

    Not if I get more out of another talent, which EVERY calculation I’ve run says I do. 😛

  17. If you are talking about Efficiency or RR then it is situational. Heriocs or 10 mans without a Replenishment class those will be superior spreadsheet or not. However when mana isn’t an issue and in most 25 man raiding it isn’t, those are not in the least a DPS increase. Or if you mean Careful Aim, then that is also dependant, but on your geared +hit. Outside of that I can’t fathom what talents you would be talking of.

  18. Efficiency is almost 100% useless in a good 25-man, and so is Rapid Recup, because you literally DON’T run out of mana. It’s almost endless. I tried and failed to use my entire mana pool last run. This is one of the reasons Blizzard is bringing mana down a notch. I know you’ve read those patch notes. I don’t know what other talents you’re talking about, because if you don’t get efficiency, you have to get past tier 5 talents somehow – that means either taking Improved Hunter’s Mark (not much damage increase) or taking Focused Aim, which is completely gear dependant. If you don’t take ANY of those, you almost HAVE to take Barrage or you won’t get to tier 6. You could fill out GftT, but it would be a waste. Perzyx and a few others were right in that your crit in full raid buff is more than sufficient to allow one point to do its job. Let’s look deeper – 12% of my average Aimed Shot is a little less than 300. If I’m in a four minute fight, that’s approximately 24 Aimed Shots, but we’ll shave it to 20 because we’re not always going to be able to hit Aimed right at its cooldown (sometimes it conflicts with Arcane, or we’re not perfect, whatever). 300 * 20 = 6,000. Without Barrage and with only three talent points, where are you going to come up with 6,000 damage in a four minute fight? Where would you put your talents to give you 6,000 damage?

    Perzyx, I think you meant Focused Aim, but we understood you. But I wanted to find a man who isn’t already in a guild – he would have to come to mine. I think that disqualifies you, since you have your own guild.

  19. Yes I did say Careful Aim and that was my bad 😦 Good catch.

    Actually we transferred servers to Mal’ganis, but I don’t think that is what you meant about guilds. For the record, I am only guilded in game.

    But yes in 10 mans or less without Replenishment classes I would pick up Efficiency and possibly RR. Actually I would just spec Survival in those cases and BE the Replenishment class. But in 25 mans as MM, those talents are worthless on most encounters.

  20. You’re thinking of “geld”.

  21. OK, I am officially lost. I have no clue what a geld is or what you mean. 😦

  22. Oh..

    Geld: Castrate or to deprive of a natural or essential part.

    So I am castrated in game? I’m still lost by what you were getting at but oh well.

  23. Not sure if this has been addressed yet or not, but we aren’t losing consumable ammo for some time yet. There was a blue past in the past week or 2 that mentioned that the change will not be ready for 3.1, but they they still intend to do tit when they figure out how. Quivers/ammo pouches are still suppose to go bye-bye though.

  24. Yeh it’s going to be a while before we lose consumable ammo.
    Excellent post Nass!

  25. Perzyx – Oh! You’re referring to being in a relationship! LOL I thought you were making reference to your man bits, like so many other men do. My bad…

    @ Viperm – Yeah, it will be a while, but we’re getting it and I’m so happy. =D

  26. “But I wanted to find a man who isn’t already in a guild – he would have to come to mine. I think that disqualifies you, since you have your own guild.”

    See that’s where I’m lost… you are saying you were talking about man-bits. So that means you want another woman?

  27. “Actually we transferred servers to Mal’ganis, but I don’t think that is what you meant about guilds. For the record, I am only guilded in game.”

    THAT is the part I thought you were talking about man-bits in, as in saying you at least have man bits outside of the game. You know, like an advertisement. A little add-on, saying even though you’re ‘gelded’ in game, you aren’t IRL…

    But it’s way past the point of being funny now and is starting to creep over borderline weird.

    And no, I’m not a lesbian. Girls are nice to look at, but men get the job done.

  28. Yeah.. wierd is correct. Umm, so how about them Mets?

  29. lol

  30. …….Nass……………… ummmmmm ok

  31. What’s with the Old Thread Revival? lol

  32. well this is what i did. I tried to place points into LNL pvp style with improved arcane shot damage. Its actually pretty insane damage without having to stop at all during the whole fight. Now again PVP not PVE. What it allowed me to do it get aimshot/chamera shot followed by 3 free arcane shots back to back. Pretty crazy if u ask me not having to stop to cast steady shot 1 time

  33. For the people going for a nice PVE spec MM is the best out there as of now. A friend of mine does over 10k dps in 25 mans single target. Name is Prósaiyan from bonechewer realm.


    Link to his armory. Enjoy

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